Friday, December 21, 2007

Our Garden Holly


Here is holly from a bush at the end of our garden.
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Thursday, December 13, 2007

My Thoughts On Christmas

Now where shall I begin? Christmas seems so many things to so many different people that I find it very difficult to get my thoughts on to paper. To me Christmas is a time full of joy, a time when we enjoy the company of our dear ones and remember those who are part of our past. Christmas is so much part of childhood, my own and my children’s that there must surely be the beginning of my thoughts. Some of the Christmas memories are so far back that they can hardly be called memories at all. They are feelings so deep within my being that they probably come from the time when my mother first picked me up to show me the glittering Christmas tree in the corner of the room. Certain things can touch that time such as the piny scent as we walk into the room with the tree. Scent is the most likely to bring back memories from the past. The gleam of the baubles, the twinkling lights, the shining tinsel and the glittering star at the very top of the tree also act on our subconscious. There is something extra special about the act of bringing a tree into the house. It surely must have had great significance to our most ancient of pagan ancestors living in these chilly northern climes. An artificial tree can never be quite the same. This applies to the holly and, of course, we must not forget the mistletoe.
I love the Christian aspect of Christmas with the birth of Jesus in the stable, the Shepherds, and the Star leading the Three Kings, one of whom is always portrayed as being black. This interests me as I do not know where the legend of one black and two white kings came from. I am also fascinated by the great pagan midwinter festival that Christmas replaced, a festival that helped northern people get through the darkest part of winter. To some extent Christmas still serves this purpose.
Music is an integral part of Christmas, both carols old and new, and modern Christmas songs, and, of course, Christmas stories abound. I feel the need to read The Christmas Carol by Charles Dickens every year, and to have a dip into any of the Christmas anthologies I can find. And what about Father Christmas? He must not be forgotten. The children with their sparkling Christmas eyes would not allow that.
None of this delves into the much deeper mysteries of Christmas and these, I think, should be kept for another time. So we shall keep away from such solemn and insoluble questions. Fetch the decorations, the holly, and most of all, remember to bring in the tree. Don’t forget the turkey or the especially festive nut roast, the pudding, the mince pies and the cake, the wine and the brandy. Give and receive presents without feeling guilty, and most of all remember, as John Masefield said, laugh and be merry with the loved ones who are with us.
So, to everyone,

Have A Merry Christmas !!!

Wednesday, December 05, 2007

Christmas


This is just to show that I am beginning to notice that Christmas is on the way.
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Thursday, November 22, 2007

Roses in November



Here is a November rose. The roses have been so good this year.
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Friday, November 09, 2007

Town Trees


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I feel the Lawson's pines should be growing on a wild mountain side.

Thursday, November 08, 2007

My Love Of Woodland



This is where my conscious memories of woodland begin.
I was taken to Epping Forest on a Sunday School treat when I was around five or six years old. Unfortunately my main memory is falling off a donkey. My foot being caught in a stirrup I was dragged along the ground, finishing up with a nasty graze on one of my arms. The trees took a second place that day!
As a young child Hockley woods played a great part in pleasurable outings of exploration. With young friends I wandered through the woods delighting in the great oak trees and the thickly growing remains of past coppicing. My Dad took me for walks and explained about the coppice cutting that had taken place in the past, talks which stayed in my mind and was the beginning of my love of trees. Windflowers starred the ground early in the Spring, delicately stirring to the slightest breeze.
There were also huge ants, not so lovable. Their nests were mountains of tiny twigs and whatever else was suitable for them. They got in the way of picnics. I have an idea they were originally put there as food for pheasants. The pheasants were gone and so were the humans who preyed on them, but the ants were flourishing.
While going to Hockley Council School my friend, Jean, and I were allowed to have a picnic meal in the woods once a week, in the summer of course. We sat in what I think were old sand pits surrounded by trees, not far from the school. On other days we went home for our dinner.
There was also the pleasure of eating the sweetest of chestnuts from the massive trees that grew near to the school playground. There was holly to collect at Christmas time, holly that seemed all the more festive due the search in the depths of the woods for bushes with berries.

My second name is Sylvia which seems to have been prophetic on the part of my parents.

Tuesday, October 30, 2007

Autumn

The leaves on the huge London plane tree opposite to our house are now golden. Soon they will fall and we shall really believe that winter is here. Today the sun is shining and there is still warmth in it. We sat in the conservatory and were comfortable. Before that we had a walk by the Welsh Harp and this was lovely. There were a few people walking their dogs. The water really looked blue. We could see the top of the new Wembley Stadium with its arch. I never understand why the arch has to be leaning. I think it would be better standing straight upwards.
From where I am sitting, looking between the houses opposite, I can see the top of Brockley Hill so we are really on the edge of London.

Thursday, October 25, 2007

A Veteran Tree

This is such an ancient oak tree. I should like to see Mill Hill as it was when this tree was a sapling.If only these veteran trees could speak.
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Wednesday, October 10, 2007


We had to have our very tall, ancient conifer felled yesterday. I was grieved to have to do but it became necessary as we were afraid it might come down in a gale and either damage our or a neighbours house. I planted the tree nearly fifty years ago when it was a tiny sapling. It poured with rain all the time the two young men were working on it. As it had a preservation order on it we had to get permission to cut it down. The man from the tree department of the council suggested we replace it with a fruit tree. We are now looking for a Victoria plum tree.
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Friday, September 28, 2007

Looking Back Through Memory’s Veil

I look back through memory’s veil
To that distant child living through historyand approaching chaos.
What in that early time led to the present being?
A variety of influences played their parts:
That fearsome headmaster , tall and ramrod straight,
Was countered by parents of tolerant authority.
There was a brother so small and so determined in his play,
So full of imagining,So much an individual.
Wide fields and tall trees were there
For love of the wilderness and joy of freedom.
Fetes and concerts divided the year, each to its own season.
A witch’s deserted hovel was a place of terror.Never to be entered.
Death was a part of it,
A well loved Grandad taken in old age.
Many of poverty’s children were a part of that time,
Poorly clad scraps of humanity with noses so runny, faces so dirty and plimsolled feet in pouring rain.
“Land of Hope and Glory?”
Later there was the convent ,
An austere place of black-robed gliding figures,
The smell of polish, lead pencils and yesterday’s dinner.
Crocodiles of schoolgirls demurely curtsy passing Reverend Mother
Hiding their frolicksome hearts beneath severely uniformed exteriors.
That French nun who taught us the Marseillaise,
Was she homesick?
Trees, river marshes, those fields so wide and free
Awaited the return from days at the desk and academic enforcement.
Was there ever such freedom again
As the holidays brought?
There was time to run, time to climb,
Woodland exploration and riverside adventures with laughing companions.
But there was also fear.
Fear of the rapidly approaching dread shadow of conflict
Sometimes entered the child’s mind,
Momentarily blotting out child hood.
The sharp axe of war crashed down,
Slicing through that far off world with terrible sureness.
Somewhere, beyond eternity, do those sun-lit children still play?

MSK.

Wednesday, September 26, 2007

Autumn



Autumn is approaching once more. How quickly the time passes.
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Dappled Dad

We did have some lovely days this summer.

Tuesday, September 18, 2007


A corner of our garden.
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Saturday, September 08, 2007



As I grew up in a village not far from Southend I was, naturally enough, quite frequently beside the Thames Estuary. Because of that I have a soft spot for the area. The photo was taken earlier this year in Thorpe Bay. Rather impressive, I think.
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Friday, September 07, 2007

Sun and Shadows

Sun and shadows make
Our garden lovely.
Shadows and bright sun
Across the lawn
Make beauty.

MSK

Friday, August 31, 2007

January Bird Table

Black shadows in surrounding trees
Wait for the provider on January mornings,
For one who holds a few of the keys
To avian winter survival.

Water, seeds, nuts and fat,
Bread if it’s brown and crumbs of cake,
Break the ice, shoo the cat,
First of jobs on a January morning.

A blackbird flies to the apple basket,
Pecks and pecks again and again,
The sweetness of summer it’s her task to eat,
To carry her on to vernal survival.

As dusk descends I hope they’re full,
Warm for the night, fluffed on their roosts.
Waiting for morning and the golden jewels
Flaming above the horizon, their signal for flight.

MSK

It's September tomorrow so winter is on its way.

Friday, August 24, 2007

Autumn



Crisp autumn mornings give me something of my childhood;
The chill in the air, the sun bright-shining,
Diamond strung cobwebs, touch some hidden cord
Which reaches back through time
To that distant happiness. They rouse the wish
To trample rustling leaves deeply lying in their
Red-gold masses under glorious trees,
Trees ripe for climbing in those far off days
Before the turmoil of newly attained adulthood
Swept away the child’s world
Into the fine-wrought halls of memory.

Sunday, August 19, 2007

Monday, August 13, 2007

A Welsh Harp Walk



I like to make collages but this is only a lazy picasa 2 made one.
At least it is from my own photos.

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Monday, August 06, 2007



This is a sweet little Victorian House which belonged to my Grandmother Rosetta. When I was a little girl I

had 48 farthings saved in it. I felt rich. It was originally intended to be a money box. It is now about 120 years old.


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Thursday, August 02, 2007

Looking Back Through Memory’s Veil

I look back through memory’s veil
To that distant child living through history
And approaching chaos.
What in that early time led to the present being?
A variety of influences played their parts:
That fearsome headmaster , tall and ramrod straight,
Was countered by parents of tolerant authority.
There was a brother so small and so determined in his play,
So full of imagining ,
So much an individual.
Wide fields and tall trees were there
For love of the wilderness and joy of freedom.
Fetes and concerts divided the year, each to its own season.
A witch’s deserted hovel was a place of terror.
Never to be entered.
Death was a part of it,
A well loved Grandad taken in old age.
Many of poverty’s children were a part of that time,
Poorly clad scraps of humanity with
Noses so runny, faces so dirty and plimsolled feet in pouring rain.
“Land of Hope and Glory?”
Later there was the convent ,
An austere place of black-robed gliding figures,
The smell of polish, lead pencils and yesterday’s dinner.
Crocodiles of schoolgirls demurely curtsey passing Reverend Mother
Hiding their frolicksome hearts beneath severely uniformed exteriors.
That French nun who taught us the Marseillaise,
Was she homesick?
Trees, river marshes, those fields so wide and free
Awaited the return from days at the desk
And academic enforcement.
Was there ever such freedom again
As the holidays brought?
There was time to run, time to climb,
Woodland exploration and riverside adventures with laughing companions.
But there was also fear.
Fear of the rapidly approaching dread shadow of conflict
Sometimes entered the child’s mind,
Momentarily blotting out childhood.
The sharp axe of war crashed down,
Slicing through that far off world with terrible sureness.
Somewhere, beyond eternity, do those sun-lit children still play?

Saturday, July 28, 2007

A Day Out in WW2

To go for a day out on my bike with a friend was one of my great pleasures when I was in my early teens. To set off early in the morning with a packet of sandwiches, a flask of tea in my saddlebag and the open road ahead was wonderful. It appealed to the gypsy in me.
We would set off early in the morning and cycle towards Battlesbridge where we would cross the bridge over the River Crouch. Once over we were in what was to us distant country, far from home. The roads were quiet and the miles sped by. On and on we would go. It was wonderful. We even got as far as the River Blackwater on one outing which was amazing. On that occasion we spotted a tank moving about near the river so we beat a hasty retreat! We did not want to get caught up in army manoeuvres of some sort. Remember, this was wartime.
Although I remember those days as being always sunny I know that there were occasions when the rain poured down. There was the time when there was pelting rain for the last fifteen miles or so of the journey home. This must have been after the war had ended as we were rowed across the river by Mr Swanborough who regularly ferried people, bikes and all, from Burnham to the opposite side of the Crouch and vice versa of course. I know I was a drowned rat by the time I arrived home. Even so, the memory is of a happy day.
The whole atmosphere of those days out was the feeling of freedom that we had. There was little traffic on the roads, and for a few hours we were away from any sort of worry. I don’t think it would be possible to find that feeling in many places these days. There is tension in the air.

Friday, July 20, 2007

An Edwardian Wedding

I think this is a beautiful old family wedding photograph. The young girl with the lovely white hat is my mother. In the back row standing up higher than the others is my Uncle Dick.

Sunday, July 15, 2007

Then and Now

As it seems fashionable at present to consider whether one is a survivor or not here are some memories of my very distant child hood.



Here are some of the things I did as a child and as a young adult which would be considered highly dangerous these days.

I would ride my bicycle without a helmet,
Climb very high trees.
Ride on horse back without a helmet,
Roller skate through the village on the main road,
Explore woods and marshlands by a river,
Go out for a whole day with a friend and a packet of sandwiches, again exploring so that no one would know where we were,
Paddle in a river having no idea how deep it might be and of the danger of drowning,
I remember the great pleasure of hanging on the back of a horse drawn milk float on my roller skates. As the side roads were all unmade in those distant days anything to do with roller skates had to be on the Main Road

As a young adult during WW2 I walked home from dances and the cinema with friends while anti aircraft guns were firing and shrapnel was falling on the pavements along which we were walking.

I was in a First Aid group at the age of sixteen. The group was short of one steel helmet and as I was the youngest I did not have one. I borrowed my Dad’s. As things turned out I did not need it.

As I am a very ancient lady indeed I think I must be a survivor. It amuses me to compare “then and now”.

Saturday, June 30, 2007

A cactus of mine.

This must be the last of the flowers for the time being. It is a jolly little cactus which only started flowering a couple of years ago. I had it for a long time before that.
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Wednesday, June 27, 2007

More trees

These trees are at the end of our garden. I like them silhouetted against the bright blue sky. We have not had many of those skies lately.
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Monday, June 25, 2007

I posted this through picasa 2. Amazingly easy.
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Saturday, June 23, 2007












Here are some flowers from our garden as a change from trees,



Wednesday, June 20, 2007


We have just recently come home from a lovely family visit to Yorkshire. This is Pixie, the family cat. He is beautiful.
I have not yet recovered from the visit. It takes time to get into London mode after being a couple of hundred miles away. We had only just got over our lovely stay in Edinburgh.
Where shall we go next, I wonder!

Monday, June 18, 2007


We are home again after our trip to Yorkshire. The time went by too quickly.

Thursday, May 31, 2007

I have been adding bits to my previous post and now there is a blank space at the end of it. I don't know how to rectify it. How aggravating.

Wednesday, May 16, 2007

The Green Man and his relationship to Herne the Hunter

This Green Man hangs below our grape vine.










The Green Man is probably an ancient symbol of Life and Death. Winter's death and Spring's rebirth, the perennial cycle of Spring sowing leading to the joyful harvest of Autumn and its many celebrations.Or is he the archetypal spirit of the woodland long believed to haunt the sylvan depths. This sometimes quaint or sometimes rather frightening face, surrounded with leaves which in many cases come writhing from the eyes and mouth and even from the nostrils, has been with us since pre Christian times. He is to be found in the Middle East, even as far as India, and all through Europe. He has been Pan, Baachus, and in the medieval age Robin Hood, that Green clad hero of Sherwood Forest. And what about Sir Gawain and the Green Knight?

The Green Man as a foliate head is to be found in many churches and cathedrals in Britain and Europe, hiding away amongst carvings on the pillars,gazing down from a high roof boss, and sometimes even among the carvings behind the altar. He is as much a part of the ancient church or cathedal as the angels. How can this be? I feel that he was almost certainly placed there by the medieval stonemasons as a protection from the possible failure of the new religion, an appeal to the old pagan gods who have never entirely left us. We have only to look at the names of our weekdays, and the name of the goddess, Eostre,still kept for the greatest Christian festival. And don't forget Yule, the pagan midwinter festival, still remaing as Yuletide or Christmas.

I can well inderstand the feelings of the people who lived their lives in a land which had large areas covered with woodland. There must have been a sense of mystery felt while walking amongst the great trees, and thoughts of possible spirit beings there are quite understandable. Was the Green Man brought to this island in ancient times when humans first crossed by the land bridge that existed then. Maybe they brought the Green Man with them and found he fitted very well into the new land.

How did the belief in this woodland spirit come to the Celtic peoples who arrived here later? How did how get to India and the Far East? I have some thoughts on this that I will carry onto the next paragraph.

It is now generally believed that the human race came into being in Africa. I am wondering if there is a possibility that the concept of a woodland spirit came into the minds of those archaic people before they split up and wandered though the world, gradually spreading through the continents, developing different characteristics as they went. In this way the Green Man would have come to many parts of the world, remaining a potent spirit to those to whom woodland was an important and dominating part of their lives, giving them food, wood for their homes, fires. and herbs and fruit, as well as meat from the wild boar and the deer. Life would have seemed impossible without woodland.


Now we come to Herne the Hunter. I understand that his first appearance in English literature is in "The Merry Wives of Windsor" by William Shakespeare. I shall place a verse here from that play as it seems so evocative of the time and place, and of the superstitious beliefs that most of the population had.


There is an old tale goes that Herne the Hunter,

Sometime a keeper here is Windsor forest,

Doth all the winter-time, at still midnight,

Walk round about an oak, with great ragged horns;

And that he blasts the tree, and takes the cattle

And makes milch-kine yield blood, and shakes a chain

In a hideous and dreadful manner.


From Shakespeare's Merry Wives of Windsor, spoken by Mistress Page.



There is an old myth about an expert gamekeeper, Herne, in Windsor Forest during the reign of Richard the second. The king and Herne, together with other keepers, were in the forest chasing a large and splendid stag when suddenly it turned on the king's horse, charged it, and brought it to the ground, goring the animal and giving it terrible wounds. King Richard was thrown and in mortal danger. Herne sprang from his horse and rushed to the aid of the unfortunate king.

Drawing his knife, he killed the stag and, unfortunately, was himself gored and dangerously wounded. He lay there, slowly dying, while the king called for aid. The other keepers, who were jealous of Herne, took pleasure in giving no help.

Then, out of the thicket, rode a dark and disquieting figure mounted on a handsome, black stallion. He offered help to the king. The group of keepers thought this arrival a mere poacher, but the king accepted the offer. whereupon the dark stranger dismounted and came towards the unfortunate Herne. Using Herne's knife, he cut the magnificent antlers from the head of the dead stag, These he tied to the head of the dying Herne saying that he would now be restored within a month. Herne was then placed on a stretcher of branches and carried back to his home.

Sensing the jealousy of the keepers for Herne, this hypocritical stranger offered to help them take revenge. When Herne recovered his health and strength he would no longer have his great forestry skills. This pleased the cruel keepers immensely and also caused King Richard to dismiss Herne from his service although he had been a faithful servant to the king for many years.

The distraught Herne wandered off into the forest with the antlers still attached to his head, brandishing chains in the air, shouting madly, and generally acting like one insane. Not to be wondered, you might think, after all he had gone through.

At some later time that sadly afflicted man was found by a hermit, of whom there were many in medieval times, hanging from a great and ancient oak. The hermit ran to the castle for help. When a crowd returned with him to the oak Herne had vanished. There was not a sign of the body to be found! Later that very same night the ancient oak was struck by lightning.

From this time onwards, through the years, Herne haunted Windsor Forest to the great fear of all who had to enter the forest. He put a curse on the forest they were sure. The keepers of the forest went on a wild hunt, (an ancient Germanic myth to which I refer in a later paragraph), killing many of the deer and seriously depleting their numbers in hopes of destroying the curse, but this had no effect.

The king, feeling desperate about this trouble, went with his keepers to the desolate remains of the oak. Herne came forth from the trees pointing an accusing finger at the men who had destroyed him. Their terror was indescribable. Richard had every one of them hanged from a remaining branch of the oak. From that time, until the end of Richard's reign, Herne was never seen again.

However, that was not the end of Herne. He has been seen as an omen of coming times of trouble. At such times, up to this very day, he is to be seen roaming Windsor Forest, complete with his splendid great antlers, a terrifying yet fascinating figure.

The Victorian author, Harrison Ainsworth, brought Herne into his novel "Windsor Castle", a story of the time of Lady Jane Grey and Queen Mary. This was a favourite of mine when I was around fourteen years old. Herne the Hunter became a fascinating figure from that time.

Now I have to see if there is a connection to be found between Herne and the Green Man. Where are the similarities,if any? Both have to be associated with the woods. The Green Man's leaves can have no other meaning surely,and Hernes's antlers relate him to the deer and hunting which in turn lead us to the woodland connections.

The idea of the foliate heads found in the churches and cathedrals must have come down through the ages from former pagan beliefs and maybe they were placed there from a fear of letting the old beliefs go. There must have been a feeling of unease at leaving them behind,and bringing something from the past into the present could possibly ease that fear.

When we come to consider the legend of Herne the Hunter what do we find? Herne himself seems to belong to Windsor forest and the question is, how far back in time does that connection reach? As I said before, the first written connection is by Shakespeare in The Merry Wives of Windsor, but, of course, this does not mean that he did not exist before then. There are many examples of horned gods going back to the most ancient of times. To the prehistoris artists of the drawings in the French caves the animals they were portraying must have seemed god-like creatures. Among the horned gods we can find an ancient Celtic god called Cernunnos, and of course, there was Pan. The animals killed while hunting were always respected by the huntsmen.

An old Germanic belief was The Wild Hunt. This hunt was supposedly led by Woden, and it was believed to be taking place whenever there was a particularly stormy night. The huntsmen rode shrieking through the night with Woden riding at their head on his magical, eight-legged horse. To have seen the Wild Hunt would have been particularly terrifying. Herne the Hunter would seem to belong to this belief.

So was Herne connected to the horned gods of the ancient past? Was he one of the huntsmen of that Wild Hunt who at some point in time became part of the Windsor Forest myth, becoming Herne the Hunter ( I understand that Herne in and old word for horn)? This seems possible. I must research further.

So how does that myth connect with The Green Man? I feel myself that he does not belong to any myth of the hunt. He is much more likely to be a spirit of the trees. Maybe he was believed to protect the woodland, thus indirectly helping the humans who needed the wood for so many parts of their lives. The leafy faces we see today can surely be a concept of tree spirits, beings to be respected and sometimes feared. As I have read of the Bamberg Man in the cathedral in that town in Germany,


The most you could hope for in any dealings with the Green man of Bamberg is that he should be on your side.......

The ferocity of his expression is one of warning against neglect of the Natural Law.


From "Green Man, The Archetype of Oneness With the Earth."

By William Anderson.


So have I reached the end of my thoughts on the relationship of the Green Man and Herne the Hunter believing that there is no relationship between them ? Historians with far more knowledge than I appear think there is a connection, but I still feel that any relationship must be in the far distant past, long before we can have any true knowledge, and that as the centuries passed the spirit of the woods and the hunt divided and became the Green Man and the horned god.

Until I came across more information that is where I shall leave this essay.


Since I wrote this essay I have been to Bamberg and seen the Bamberg Man in the cathedral. He is certainly a fine and formidable Green Man.
I seem to have got a space here that I did not intend. I should like to put a picture of the Bamberg Man here but it refuses to be copied into this position. Maybe I'll sort it out later.
I am wondering when it was that I started to take an interest in The Green Man. It is quite a number of years ago. I have loved woodland since I was a child so that was a starter I suppose. The idea of a spirit of the woods fascinated me, therefore the Green Man must be fascinating.
I am now going to insert a verse from Puck's Song by Rudyard Kipling.
She is not any common Earth,
Water or wood or air,
But Merlin's Isle of Gramarye*,
Where you and I will fare.
* Gramarye is magic. "She", of course is England.
Surely such a magical place must be a home to the Green Man!
The Blue Pool


The Blue Pool was green today,
Not blue at all
But as green as grass.
By reason of the atmosphere
The notice said
As we went in.
Strange it seemed
That the Blue Pool
Should be green,
And that we should stand
On the sandy bank,
Admiring the weedy green water,
Famed for its blueness.
The sun it shone
And the sky was blue,
But still was the water
Greenly shining
And greenly still.

I wrote this some time ago about a true happening. It seems to fit in with the green atmosphere. Maybe the Green Man had been working his magic!!








































Thursday, May 03, 2007

Today I am pleased to say we are in Edinburgh.

Wednesday, May 02, 2007

Packing for the holiday

What a frenzy packing is!
Not too much!
But I must take this,
I am sure I need it!!
No room for that,
Take something out!
Clothes for warmth,
Clothes to be cool,
Walking shoes and something smart.
Shall we ever get away.
Anything forgotten will stay behind,
We shan't miss it
That's for sure!
Scribbled in a hurry while packing for a few days in Edinburgh.

Tuesday, May 01, 2007

What a splendid sky this is



That morning the sky seemed to be just above our heads and the cloud formations were magnificent. To walk beside the Welsh Harp on a morning like this is to experience a great wonder at the beauty of the world. It is so sad that there are so many terrible things happening in different parts of this same world. Maybe one day human beings will come to believe that we are all the same race. No matter what colour we are, what country we were born in, what religion we practice, we are all homo sapiens. Just look at tiny children before they have had a chance to be influenced by adults' beliefs. They are all the same in their behaviour and in their playing. There is no difference in them.